Your neighbor says claim at 62. Your advisor says wait until 70. On this episode of Your Money, Your Wealth® TV, Joe Anderson, CFP® and Big Al Clopine, CPA run the real numbers on retirement age, claiming Social Security, break-even math, spousal and survivor Social Security benefits for married couples, and how much of your benefit the IRS can take, so you can land on the Social Security strategy that actually fits your health, your lifestyle, and your wealth.
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Claiming Social Security:
- 00:00 The Great Social Security Debate
- 10:01 The Psychology Behind Early Claiming
- 03:03 The Case for Waiting Longer
- 04:47 Decoding the Break-Even Point
- 08:06 Social Security for Married Couples
- 17:47 Working While Collecting Benefits
- 19:09 How Social Security Gets Taxed
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Transcript:
(NOTE: Transcriptions are an approximation and may not be entirely correct)
Joe: As you’re thinking about claiming your Social Security benefits, beware, everyone has an opinion. Your neighbor, he’s gonna tell you to claim it at 62. Of course, you sit down with a financial advisor, what are they gonna say? Claim it at 70. Then you go online, and guess what? The internet is gonna tell you something every single time you log on. Trust me, claiming your Social Security benefit is not about an age or a number. It’s about your lifestyle, it’s about your health, and it’s about your wealth.
Welcome to the show, everyone. Show’s called Your Money, Your Wealth®. Joe Anderson here, president of Pure Financial Advisors. And of course, I’m with the big man, Big Al Clopine, sitting right over there.
Al: I’m excited because you know what? Everyone needs to know about Social Security.
Joe: Yeah, it’s a big deal. ‘Cause if you make the wrong decision, it could cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars. Today, we’re gonna do the math. We’re gonna help you make that best decision. That’s today’s Financial Focus.
All right, claiming age. 80% of people still claim before their full retirement age. You know, Al, we see this quite a bit. You ask someone when they wanna claim it, they’ll be like, “Well, no, I wanna wait as long as I can.” But still, most people claim it early.
Al: Yeah, Joe, it’s amazing how many people claim.
Actually, it’s 62, which is the first age you can claim. So let’s get into this. So we’re gonna talk about the pros and cons. In some cases, you should take it early, other cases later, some cases in between. So we’ll get into all of that, and probably most importantly is the strategies that are gonna help you. And especially if you’re married, there’s some strategies that you need to hear about for married couples.
When Should You Claim Social Security? The Case for 62, 67, and 70
Joe: Yeah, there’s not one size that fits all. I mean, there’s hundreds and hundreds of different claiming strategies that you can use But there’s a psychology around Social Security. It’s interesting, depending on what camp that you’re in.
So taking it early, here’s the psychology. Loss aversion, right? Hey, I- it might leave. I wanna just get it as soon as I can get it. Sense of ownership. Hey, this is my benefit. I wanna get it. And then fear of early death. Hey, if I don’t have longevity, let’s take it now. I think there’s a lot more to this as well, of taking it early.
I said before is that people like to have that fixed income once they retire. If you’re giving up your paycheck, you have to create your own from your investments. It’s like, man, I just wanna get that at least some fixed income as soon as I can get it because it will help my distribution rate as well. So a lot of different ways of thinking about taking it early.
Al: Yeah, no question. I think that’s kind of the key, what you just said, which is you stop working and you still want a paycheck, right? People that- that delay, a lot of times they see their asset balances going down, and it doesn’t feel comfortable. Another thing, Joe, is that, means testing. Some people think there may be means testing someday. There isn’t right now.
Joe: Means t- I haven’t heard that in a while.
Al: Yeah. How about that, eh?
Joe: Let’s say I have a pension or things like that. They’re gonna take some- some back from me. We put into the system for a very long time.
Of course, we wanna get that benefit. But on the other side, there’s this camp of waiting. Hey, I have longevity, so I’m going to be patient for that benefit because the longer I wait, the more benefit that I’m gonna receive on a monthly basis. It’s gonna be my safety net. Maybe not for me, but maybe for my spouse if I were to pass in- in regards to survivor benefit.
Or hey, I just wanna maximize the total income that I could get. I’m healthy. I’m gonna work until 70 anyway, so this is probably a better strategy. Doesn’t necessarily what camp that you’re in, you just wanna find the right camp for you to determine what the best age is.
Al: I think so, too, and I think the- the longevity, some people think of this as longevity insurance really.
So I don’t know how long I’m gonna live, but I’m- I may outlive my parents, and my parents lived pretty long, and so maybe I wanna get, have some, in- in essence, a higher payment for life just because I may live quite a bit longer.
Joe: So here’s kind of the breakdown of the rules. If I have my full retirement age at age 67, and let’s just assume it’s based on a $2,000 a month benefit.
So if I claim it at 62, just know that you’re locking in a 30% permanent haircut. You will receive a benefit, but it’s gonna be 70% of your full retirement benefit, so that is $1,400. If I wait until age 70, I’m going to receive 124% increase, so $2,500 roughly. So it depends on, A, when I wanna retire. When do I need the cash flow?
What is the overall benefit? What is my marital status? What does my assets look like? I mean, there’s probably 15 different variables that’s gonna help you decide which is the best claiming strategy.
Al: Once you’re age 70 There’s no benefit in delaying. You’re just leaving money on the table, so make sure you claim by 70.
Social Security Break-Even Age: How Long Do You Have to Live?
Joe: All right. A lot of you think about Social Security benefit as an investment, and what is my break-even point? I g- we get that question just about every single day. So 62 versus 67. So if you’re debating, do I take it at age 62 or should I take it at 67? ‘Cause I know I’m not gonna wait any longer than age 67.
All right. Well, your break even, you gotta live past age 77. If you live past 77, you’re gonna be better off if you took it at 67. If you die before age 77, well, take it at 62. Isn’t this a fun game? It’s like, when am I gonna die, and how do I maximize my overall benefit?
Al: Right. And- and the tricky thing, no one knows that.
Joe: No one knows this, but people ask.
Al: Yep.
Joe: And so we’re giving you the answers. So here’s another question. Should I take it at 67 or should I take it at age 70? How long do I gotta live for me to reap those rewards? Well, that break even is age 81. As long as you live past 81, take it age 70. How about 62 to 70?
What is that break even? All right. Age 79. So here’s the breakdown, folks. If you take it at age 70 and you live to 90, you’re gonna receive $850,000 from Social Security benefits. Again, this is assuming a $2,000 a month benefit and a 2% COLA every single year. If you take it at age 67, you’re gonna receive 756,000. If I take it at 62, 622,000. So the difference between 62 and 70, Al, is $225,000. I mean, sometimes people just claim this without really any thought.
Al: And for a lot of people that have saved a lot of money, maybe it doesn’t matter as much. Maybe you treat it more like longevity insurance. But for those, and there are many people in the United States that have not saved very much, this becomes the significant source of your income, in some cases, the sole source of your income. Particularly in those cases, you wanna get it right.
Joe: Here’s another question. I’m gonna t- take it at 62, but I’m going to invest the money. I don’t need the money, I’m gonna invest it. I’d much rather invest it than the government. So we’re assuming a 2% COLA on the benefit itself and a 6% annual return. So you take it at 62, you receive that 30% haircut, and you invest the money at a 6% rate of return. What is your break even? 81. So, still, it’s kind of those final years. If you’re gonna be more active in these years- Claim the benefit and have fun with it.
Al: Yeah, that’s-
Joe: Because when you’re in your late 80s or 90s, I don’t know, I- I don’t know if- well, hopefully you’re still traveling the world, but I think these years is where most people will want a little bit of extra cash flow.
Al: So Joe, I think you’re talking about the go-go years, and the go-go years really are those first years of retirement where you’re active, you’re traveling, you’re spending a lot of money, you’ve got a lot of hobbies. Every day is Saturday. You’re probably wanting to spend a little bit more. Then you kind of hit the slow-go years, where you’re not spending as much, right?
And then your no-go years, you know, maybe where you’re not really doing that much at all. However, medical expenses can pick up then, so it’s always hard to predict, Joe.
Joe: Absolutely. You know, we- we talked about the psychology, we talked about the math, but what happens if you add another person? How about if you’re married? Things get twice as complicated. When we get back from the break, we’re gonna walk you through what it looks like if you’re married. If you need a little bit more help, go to YourMoneyYourWealth.com. Click on our special offer. It’s our Social Security guide. If you’re thinking about claiming Social Security, I would download this guide right now.
It’s our Social Security guide. Go to YourMoneyYourWealth.com. Click on that special offer. It’s gonna go through the rules, the regs, the different things that you should be thinking about in regards to your claiming strategy. YourMoneyYourWealth.com, special offer, Social Security guide. Don’t go anywhere. We’ll be right back.
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Social Security Spousal Benefits and Survivor Benefits for Married Couples
Joe: Hey, welcome back to the show, folks. Joe Anderson, Big Al. We’re talking about the best age to claim Social Security. Do you know what it is? Guess what? It’s all over the place. Let’s see how you did on the true-false question.
Al: The average American will live to age 75. Well, actually, I’ve got some good news for you. It’s a little bit higher, and for you ladies out there, it’s higher than the men. Joe, what, are the facts?
Joe: 79. Female, 81. Male, 76. But this is at birth, right?
Al: Right. In fact, I just looked this up. So if you’re 65 years of age, male, the average would be 82 or 83. A woman would be over 85 years of age. Interestingly enough, Joe, if you look at a couple, joint life of expectancy, there’s over a 50% chance that at least one of you will live past 90.
Joe: So you wanna make sure that you understand what spousal benefits are, what survivor benefits are, how you can combine a spousal benefit on your own benefit. When does it make sense? How does it work? So we’ll dive in. Al, why don’t you give us a quick breakdown?
Who Qualifies for Spousal and Survivor Benefits, Including Divorced Spouses
Al: Okay, let’s start with the spousal benefits. So current spouse, you gotta be married a year or more. You have to be age at least 62, and your spouse has to be collecting benefits. And you can receive up to half of your spouse’s full retirement benefit, depending upon their age when they started collecting.
So number one. But you may or may not know this. If you’re divorced and you’ve been married for at least, 10 years and you’re currently unmarried and at least 62, then, you can also receive up to 50% benefit. So if your current spouse, you gotta be married at least nine months or longer, and of course, your spouse would be deceased.
You gotta be at least age 60. Then you can receive their full benefit, what they were receiving, 100%. Divorced spouse, married at least 10, or more years. Your ex-spouse is deceased and you’re at least 60 and you are unmarried or you remarried after age 60, you can also receive the spousal benefit, 100% of your ex.
Joe: Because you lose one of the two, right? I’m now dead. My spouse only has one benefit. When we were living, we had two benefits to help support the overall household. So if one spouse dies, know that the income is gonna go down, so the Social Security Administration says, “All right, well, the surviving spouse can pick the higher of the two.” So that’s your survivor benefit.
Four Social Security Claiming Scenarios for a Married Couple
Al: All right. So we’ve got Dave and Carol, and we’re gonna go through some scenarios, right? And the first one is that they’re both 62 years of age a- and they’re claiming at the same time. So Joe, how does that look?
Joe: Dave, he’s not gonna get $2,200. He’s gonna get 1540. Carol, $800. She’s claiming at 62, so her $800 benefit goes to 770. David dies at age 80. So now I’m claiming David’s record for the next 10 years, and then she passes. So in this scenario, what type of income came to the overall family? Well, David got about 400,000, Carol took 200,000, and then her survivor benefit for those 10 years when David passed was another 300. So $883,000 went into that household given these scenarios. So claiming right away at 62, it’s not bad. Not chump change.
Al: Yeah, no, it’s a great amount really. And for a lot of people, that probably is maybe the best way to go because they retire. In some cases, people retire, that’s not their choice, right? They have a loved one they have to take care of, or maybe their own health, or maybe they- they got terminated from their job and they have to retire. If you need cash flow and you’re 62, go ahead and take it. Maybe that’s the best answer. So let’s also then take a look at David claims at 67. Carol’s still at 62. Joe, how does that work out?
Joe: So she’s gonna claim on her own record $560 a month until David claims. He claims at 67. All right, now it’s gonna shore up her benefit with the spousal benefit, which is gonna be half of his benefit. However, since Carol claimed early, she’s not gonna receive 50%. It’s gonna be a reduced benefit. But she’s gonna get something. 850 goes to 1,045. David gets his $2,200. It goes to 28. Again, he dies at 80. She lives until 90. So what does this scenario bring? David, 400,000. Carol on her own record, 35, plus spousal of another 150, plus the survivor benefit of 374, 950 grand.
Al: Now we’re gonna see what it looks like when David is 67 and Carol is 67. What does that look like, Joe?
Joe: Yeah. All right, so now they’re gonna both get their full retirement benefits. But look at this. It’s about 950 versus the other 950. I don’t know, I would say it probably makes more sense for Carol to claim up here because it’s not that big of a difference, and this is kind of a guessing game, right? So if we wanna talk about go-go years, no-go years, and things like that, you wanna look at lifestyle. When do you want the cash flow or things of that nature versus, like, can I get the most dollars out of here? If that’s your ultimate goal, then this is probably the best strategy. But so far, I don’t know, I like this one.
Al: I do, too, a- and part of the reason, Joe, I like that one better is Carol had a decent benefit on her own, right? And so when she got the spousal, right, yeah, the spousal’s a little bit more, I understand that, but she missed five years of receiving benefits. So when the- when one spouse has a benefit that’s fairly close to the spousal benefit, you might actually be better off having the spouse, so, the spouse with the lower income claim earlier.
Joe: Here’s the last one that we wanna show you. I mean, we could run hundreds. We could be here all morning. David’s gonna claim at 70. Carol’s gonna claim at 67. At the end of the day, it’s a million dollars, so $50,000 more, but I think there was a lot of meat that was left on the table there.
Al: It gets complicated because r- you know, Carol could collect at any age, right? 63, 64, or 63 and six months, whatever it may be. It depends upon your situation. It depends upon if you’re still working. It’s gonna affect when you claim.
Joe: Super complicated just understanding what a spousal benefit is versus a survivor benefit. If you want the basics, if you want a little bit more help, go to YourMoneyYourWealth.com. Click on that special offer. It’s our Social Security guide. I highly recommend that you at least get the basics, the terminology down. There’s so many different rules and regulations when it comes to Social Security. All right, when we get back, we’re gonna talk about if you’re working and claiming, how is it taxed? And then we’ll wrap it up. Don’t go anywhere. The show’s called Your Money, Your Wealth.
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Working While Collecting Social Security and How Your Benefits Are Taxed
Joe: Hey, welcome back to the show, folks. Joe Anderson, Big Al. We’re talking about the best age to claim Social Security. Do you know what it is? Yeah, it’s tough. It’s a tough decision. There’s a lot of planning that you need to do. Go to our guide at YourMoneyYourWealth.com. It’s our Social Security guide. Get the basics down, understand the rules and the regulations to start formulating a strategy, ’cause it’s not black and white.
You can’t look at this in a bubble. There’s a lot of other factors that you wanna make sure that you run the numbers in to figure out the best strategy for you. YourMoneyYourWealth.com, click on that special offer. It’s our Social Security guide. Let’s see how you did on that true/false question.
Al: You can’t collect benefits while working. Well, that is false. You can claim your benefits while you’re working, and in fact, when you’re full retirement age, which is 67 right now, you can claim your benefits and there’s no limitation at all. But Joe, when you’re younger than full retirement age, there are some limitations.
Joe: If you’re under full retirement age, if you make more than 24,480 bucks, every $2 that you earn, they’re going to take a buck back. Full retirement age, 65,160. If you make more than that, then every $3 that you earn they’re gonna take a buck back. Once you reach your full retirement age, there is no limit. So I still wanna work from 67 to 80.
I can claim my benefit at age 67. They’re not gonna reduce the benefit. But if I take it prior to my full retirement age, just understand that if you’re making more than these thresholds, your benefit will be reduced.
Al: If you have to give some of your benefits back, the Social Security Administration treats it as if you didn’t receive those benefits, so you’ll have a higher benefit when you actually do start collecting.
Joe: Yeah, that’s a really good point. It’s not like they’re s- they’re- they’re taking your money. Again, it gets a little bit complicated. Just know this, high level, if I’m claiming my benefit prior to my full retirement age and I’m still working, just understand the math and these thresholds. Al, let’s talk about taxes.
Provisional Income, Tax Diversification, and the Roth Advantage
Al: Social Security income is taxable or potentially taxable. So here’s how it’s calculated. There’s a concept called provisional income, and this is an example if you’re married filing jointly. So you take your adjusted gross income, add your non-taxable interest, tax-exempt interest, and half of your Social Security benefits. Now, if that number is under $32,000, guess what?
There’s no taxation on Social Security. But if it’s between 32 and 44,000, up to 50% of your Social Security is taxed at whatever tax rate you’re in, which would probably be 12%. If your income i- this calculation, provisional income’s over 44,000, then up to 85% of your Social Security benefit is subject to tax.
Joe: Yeah. That’s a good distinction. Up to 85 or 50. It’s 50% of the benefit that’s subject to tax, not it’s a 50% tax.
Al: Yeah. People get confused. I get e-
Joe: They’re gonna tax half of my benefit?
Al: I got 85% I gotta give right back?
Joe: Yeah. You have to look at the liquid assets that you have in conjunction with your Social Security strategy and where your provisional income falls as long as what your longevity is, your marital status, and everything else in between.
But let’s talk taxes here real quick. So you have tax-free dollars, you have taxable dollars, and tax-deferred dollars. Tax-free dollars, real simple example is a Roth IRA. After-tax dollars going in, it grows tax-deferred. When you pull the money out, you don’t pay any tax. That’s all right. Right, so your taxable investments here, that’s mutual funds, stocks, bonds, real estate, things of that nature.
It’s a capital asset. But when you sell here, you’re not subject to ordinary income. It’s subject to a capital gains rate, and they have three rates. It’s zero, it’s 15, it could go as high as 20. But then the tax-deferred assets, these are your retirement accounts A 401(k), 403(b), TSP, you pull dollars out of here, this is where you’re gonna be taxed at ordinary income.
Okay? So when you go back to look at, what is my provisional income? It’s your adjusted gross income, plus non-taxable interest, plus half of your Social Security benefit, kind of falls on the grid. What doesn’t fall on that grid are your Roth dollars. Okay? Or if I have taxable investments here and I’m very tax-sensitive in how I’m managing those assets, you could pull dollars from these two accounts and not affect your provisional income.
So you could pull a ton of money out of here and have your Social Security benefit 100% tax-free as well. This is where combining strategies really creates leverage in the amount of dollars that you can pull from Social Security. But here’s the deal. Most people have all of their dollars in a tax-deferred account.
All of this is gonna be subject to ordinary income. So if I go back to that provisional income, formula, right, if all of the dollars are coming here to supply me with the additional cash that I need to live my lifestyle, well, all of that is gonna affect my provisional income. In most cases, then 85% of my Social Security benefit will be subject to tax.
So as you’re thinking about an overall strategy, being diversified with your taxes, understanding what your distribution or income strategy is from a tax perspective could really stretch those dollars out several years, in most cases.
Al: Yeah. It’s really- it’s a great thing to have Roth IRAs, and we talk about that a lot on this show.
So you think about, like, a traditional 401(k), right, or an IRA. That’s pre-tax. You- you get a tax deduction going in, and when you pull the money out, you have to pay ordinary income tax. So Roth is different. A Roth, you pay tax now. You can do a contribution. That’s taking money, out of your savings account.
$7,500 is the current amount, $1,100 catch-up if you’re 50 and older. Yeah, you can put that into your Roth IRA if you have income. Or, then you could do a Roth conversion. That’s taking money out of your IRA, 401(k), converting it. You pay tax now, but then you have it in the Roth. That is now after-tax dollars.
Principal, interest, growth, it’s all tax-free in the future. There’s no required minimum distributions. It doesn’t affect provisional income that we just talked about. Because you’re pulling money out, it doesn’t show up on your tax return. And by the way, if you pass away, your spouse gets it tax-free, and if you both pass away, your kids get it tax-free.
Early or Wait? Which Social Security Camp Are You In?
Joe: So let’s break it down really easy. Early or wait? Which camp are you in? Your health is poor. I’m not in that camp. You need to stop working. Maximize your family benefits. As we discussed, there’s 100 of other reasons, probably, why you would wanna take that benefit early. Hey, you wanna slow down the distribution rate of your liquid assets.
You wanna pass those off to the next generation. You wanna spend a little bit more and it’s like, “Hey, I want a, some, some extra cash flow.” Take it early. No one’s judging. No one really knows. Most people do it anyway. If you wanna wait, mkay, will you get more money out of the system? Yeah, probably, depending on how long that you live.
If you expect to live a very long retirement, but I don’t know, do you retire at age 55 and not take your benefit until age 70? I doubt it, right? But if I retire at 65, does it make sense to push it off until age 70? Yeah, probably. You have other income, right? Or you wanna maximize your survivor benefit.
Maybe my spouse was a stay-at-home mom and she never worked, right? Okay, well maximize your survivor benefit. That will give her benefit because I’m gonna die way before her.
Al: There are a lot of reasons, Joe, and, I, think when it really comes down to it, and I think you summarized this well, a lot of people claim at 62, a lot of advisors say wait till 70.
We’re here to tell you it’s different for everybody depending upon your circumstances and needs. So don’t feel bad taking it early, or it’s great to take it later. Whatever works best for you.
Joe: You need help? I need help. I’m gonna go to YourMoneyYourWealth.com. I’m gonna download that Social Security guide.
I gotta figure this stuff out. I still have several years to go, but man, it might take me that long. Go to YourMoneyYourWealth.com. Click on that Social Security guide. It’s gonna help you with the basics, and then it gets a little bit more complicated when it comes to claiming strategies. If you’re married, it gets twice as complicated.
YourMoneyYourWealth.com, click on that special offer. It’s our Social Security guide. For Big Al Clopine, I’m Joe Anderson. Hopefully you enjoyed the show. We’ll see you next time, folks.
Andi: Can’t get enough Joe and Big Al? Follow us on the Your Money, Your Wealth podcast in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube.
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